Urban Jacksonville

"you did look kinda Ashton Kutcher-ish…"

I agree, but we gotta do something about that metrosexual accent of Joey's.

And, fawn, why do you feel so guilty about your success in life? I've found that when people have extreme "bleeding heart disease" for the homeless it's because, within themselves, they don't feel worthy about the good life they've been blessed with, i.e. the Hollywood types of Martin Sheen, et al.

i want to 2nd john on the ashton kutcher look--- very impressive!

Yah, there ARE jobs everywhere. I guarantee it. I could lose my job tomorrow and get another one. It might be cleaning out sewers or picking up trash, but I would most definitely have a job. And if I were stinking of poo I would clean myself up in the creek and go to Goodwill and get some new clothes.

And this is assuming I had no family, no bank account, no car...no personal support system.

There is nothing that would make me give up.

There are plenty of options for the motivated.

I think everyone needs to read a bit of Ayn Rand.

So, I think we've established that the info is out there (little green pamphlets and street outreach services), the services are available, and there are people who care. The only missing link is transitional/low-income housing.

Phil

Copper stealing has been all over Springfield, not just the SPAR forum. Therefore, it's apparent that not being a part of the SPAR forum is not the only thing you are missing. Getting out doesn't mean from your front door to the car. I've not had copper stolen, but i'm very aware of it happening and i've learned this from being at meetings, get togethers, hangin out at Main Street Restaurant, NOSH, riding bikes throughout ALL of the neighborhood, not just around my little bitty block of a world....

By the way, there are free showers in these shelters, as well as they are able to use the shelters address to obtain a job. So being stinky of BO & pee is no excuse... for the rest of the comment I agree. I hate to enable those that do not work w/ extra excuses... there's enough excuses out there for them.... there are options out there for them, it's what they do w/ those options.

Joey beat me to it about the shelters as opposed to under the bridge. Makes more sense to me... That said, I spoke to a guy about the shelters "filling up" once & this is not as common as one might think. The shelters that do not have many requirements (as far as taking a shower, being sober, no weapons, not being offensive or disrespectful to others, etc) fill up fast, the others, not so much. Not sure if anyone watched the news 2 nights ago when they talked about it getting cold, but Salvation Army said that it opens up a second "emergency shelter" when it is apparent that they cannot cover the demand. Which, would mean to me, they aren't turning people away. Now, my understanding about Salvation Army is they want to help you beat your addictions. That is not something the homeless that we see trying to get a couple bucks and sleeping under the bridge is interested in, atleast for the most part.

"There are jobs everywhere."

- perhaps you would like to hire, or help get a job for, a man who has no presentable clothes, no shower to rinse off the stink of BO and pee and crap, no relevant skills, and no reliable transportation?

No? Don't think you can make that one happen?

YES, we would all like to see the homeless work, but to say something like "there are jobs everywhere" ignores the quiote obvious fact that just because a jobs are "everywhere" (that alone is debatable) doesn't mean these people can get hired.

They need to get a job and not work for seven dolla to get their drugs. There are jobs everywhere. I do think Jacksonville needs homes for lower income levels. That is homes for people that try not for slackers.

Joey-
In regards to why people do not want to walk the 3 blocks to the downtown shelters...the reasons are many and varied. (I'm not necessarily endorsing these reasons, just saying from past experience working with homeless/mentally ill/addicted persons, these are the reasons I have heard.)
1) As someone noted, the shelters do fill up, especially on cold nights. The homeless population in Jax has increased greatly over the last few years.
2) The shelters are not necessarily a safe place to be, especially if you are transgendered.
3) Restrictions on behavior. (Especially relevant for people with addictions)
4) Restrictions on what you can bring with you (think about the folks who push around their shopping carts with all their earthly possessions.)
5) Time limits on how long you can stay in a shelter.
6) People who have been on the streets for a long time are often mistrustful of shelters and housing programs because they have simply grown more comfortable playing by the rules of the street than those of society. The street becomes home.

I'm sure there are plenty more reasons, those are just the ones I heard the most often.

I urge you all to check out the concept of "housing first" and how it has worked in other cities. Jax needs fewer shelters and more long-term and permanent housing opportunities for homeless and low-income people.

sox- i do feel for you. i guess maybe had this happened to me i would feel the same way. actually, no guess about it, i would feel the way you do. i gues maybe because-- despite my handle-- i am a bigger guy who has big dogs, people don't mess with me and i have never had any of the problems you all seem to have had. a matter of perception and experience.
Joey-- i think you make an EXCELLENT point i didn't think about. why would one sleep under a bridge instead of the city rescue mission? i have no idea, but id o know from helping out there in my youth that they only take so many people a night.


i don't know, i didn't mean to seem like a dick, because i want springfield to get better. i guess maybe i just have affluent person's guilt over forcing someone less fortunate than me to do something/act a certain way because i moved into the neighborhood (DP- maybe this makes me a bleeding heart?). but then again, is it so much to ask to not have people create a small garbage dump out in public?

i guess the whole issue can be summed up by looking at all th posts here-- its complicated with no easy answers, and we're just talking about garbage dumping and sleeping under bridges, not the whole issue of homelessness in a revitalizing neighborhood.

Fawn - definitely give the SPAR Council another look. There is an excellent crew of people on the board. Retired teachers, young professionals... from 20-somethings to 60-somethings... all who have a lot of energy and great ideas for SPR.

Similar to Adam B, I think we are all essentially on the same page. If I were sleeping under a bridge I wouldn't want someone to take it away either. Because honestly, as far as homeless sleeping places are concerned, those ledges are the best.

But I don't want them to just "go elsewhere." I would rather get these guys to the places that could make a difference. I use to hand them money until I felt that I was just enabling them.

The property values are not a factor with me. I just hate seeing litter.

And like you, I do think about what I would do if I lost everything and had to live on the streets. Detailed stuff like where could I get clean water, and go to the bathroom, and would I have the resources to at least go out there with the right equipment. I think about this even more in the winter, as I am a freak about cold weather and I really really appreciate that I have a warm bed, and a toilet to sit down on with access to toilet paper, and my food comes from a well stocked fridge.

My take on this issue ranges from rage to compassion, depending on the circumstances. From "why the F don't you get off your ass and get an F'in job!" to "hey, what happened to you and how can I help?"

Phil

Ms.Fawn, if you live in the hood do you read the forums? There is a whole thread dedicated to the theft of copper from our a/c's. I for one, although you don't know me am one of the people who's a/c was stolen not just the copper but the whole damn thing. It cost me personally $750.00. That is only because I luckily can do a/c work myself and did not have to pay someone to install the unit for me. The homeless person who was caught doing the crime admitted to doing it to at least nine other homes. That is just the ones his girl(HOE) admitted to. There were several more reported but not confirmed by her. These are the type of homeless we do not wish to have in our hood. These are the same people setting up camps where they see fit whether under a bridge or an abandonned car lot or some empty field. I for one and I know of plenty of others who are tired of giving money to organizations to help these people just to have them come back and steal from us, crap on our sidewalks where we walk with our children, and yell at me when I refuse to give them money. All of you who feel that we are wrong either have a higher tolerance than I do or just enjoy being walked over. Sorry that is just my two cents. By the way Joey, You looked like a `70's porn star cool man! Nice job!!

In regards to people sleeping under the bridges, can someone please explain to me why someone would want to sleep beneath a bridge when they could walk 3 blocks to one of 10 homeless shelters downtown?

I guess being fingerprinted by JSO would deter more than a few from entering one of DT Jacksonville's many homeless shelters, but I don't think that resolution passed. So I am wondering what other causes people think there are for people to avoid the safety, warmth and food many shelters provide? Granted not all shelters may be safe, but they at least afford more safety than sleeping out in the open.

“i have no problem with cleaning it up”
–so we will expect you at our next SPAR Block Captain meeting? We often paint the bridges, clean alleys, etc. We could use your help."
As i have an odd schedule, I cannot commit to things as i look like an a-hole when i back out. That is why i do clean ups and things on my own. This may sound like a lame excuse, but carrying around a garbage bag while i walk my dog and filling it with random litter works better than not doing anything at all, right? Plus, not to be a dick, but the whole SPAR council just doesn't seem like its my thing.

More props to you for walking under there (sincerely). Its gross and the creek is polluted, i just avoid it in general.

>>"“Yes, the trash is disgusting and a public nuisance; i don’t see the problem being solved by preventing the homeless from sleeping under there”
-who put the trash there? Little gnomes? Evidence over the past 4-years has shown that the guys sleeping under the bridge have a problem with trash disposal."

Okay, i can conceded i was wrong in my logic there. Point taken. But i stand by my argument that it seems wrong to force people who are already SLEEPING UNDER A BRIDGE to go elsewhere b/c we don't like what the trash looks like, or (and this seems to be the case here) it drives down property values.

I'm not saying that lights aren't the answer, or that i even have the answer, or that there even IS an answer. I just think sometimes most of us forget how blessed we are to not have to sleep under a bridge-- and it has nothing to do with "well, that's why i work hard everyday", but rather with luck that we were born who we are, to teh families we were born to. That's all.

Copper stealing has been all over the SPAR Forum for months.

"Yes, the trash is disgusting and a public nuisance; i don’t see the problem being solved by preventing the homeless from sleeping under there"
-who put the trash there? Little gnomes? Evidence over the past 4-years has shown that the guys sleeping under the bridge have a problem with trash disposal.

"i have no problem with cleaning it up"
--so we will expect you at our next SPAR Block Captain meeting? We often paint the bridges, clean alleys, etc. We could use your help.

I walk my dogs under there at night. I like to walk along the creek. In the dark, if I squint my eyes, it almost looks clean and inviting. Unfortunately, you would have to levitate in order to not trip over the trash.

Phil

DP- sorry if the reaction was well, reactionary, but i just have a problem with blaiming ALL homeless people for the actions of a few bad seeds, and i got a little heated. I just think it is wrong to put up lights solely to drive away the homeless (as far as "safety" is concerned, i don't think anyone but the homeless walk under that bridge at night). Yes, the trash is disgusting and a public nuisance; i don't see the problem being solved by preventing the homeless from sleeping under there. And i always get pissed when the "bleeding heart" tag is applied to those who have concern for the less-fortunate than themselves. And, contrary, i get out plenty in the neighborhood and know of no one who has had copper stolen. sorry. not to say it isn't happening, but i don't see it/hear it except from you.

"honestly, when you moved here, di you you not foresee problems like this?"

Yup, I fully expected it, and I have been working towards making my neighborhood safe and clean ever since.

"step off with you agressive right wing crap, homeboy"

wow, usually it takes someone a couple of personal meetings with me before I get accused of being a right winger. Derek keeps telling me I'm really a liberal.

"no one i know in s-field has had copper stolen. and not every homeless person wants to go stealing copper."

Then you don't get out much. I know several.

and ps, get off your high horse about the copper stealing. no one i know in s-field has had copper stolen. and not every homeless person wants to go stealing copper.

hey, downtown parks, i do live in springfield (thus making it my neighborhood), and i have for 5 years. never once have i had a problem with homeless people and never once have i even notcied any of the garbage under that bridge despite walking my dogs every single day around there. step off with you agressive right wing crap, homeboy. there is nothing "bleeding heart" about questioning the taking away of one much less fortunate than ourselves's place to sleep out of the rain because we don't like to look at the garbage. i have no problem with cleaning it up or having it cleaned up or it being cleaned up, but to install lights to make it impossible for one to sleep down there, is pretty dick, i think. especially considering the "bed" you want to take away is nothing more than a concrete slab. if you are threatened or scared by homeless people, either here or in confederate park, then bulk up or get a dog or move out of the neigborhood. honestly, when you moved here, di you you not foresee problems like this?

BTW, you did look kinda Ashton Kutcher-ish...

I do think that Jacksonville is slacking a bit, if we are going to point fingers and say it's all the mentally ill. Well, then Jacksonville, needs to take the mentally ill and make sure they are treated. I believe our definition for mentally ill is skewed though. I think it takes a certain amount of mental illness to be homeless, but the majority of our homeless, atleast in Springfield, are homeless for addictions not b/c they are mentally uncapable. You can tell that when speaking to them and them asking to do work in your yard, then when you turn them down they are irritated by you not giving them money. These are people w/ addictions to alcohol and drugs. They don't have the right, IMO to sleep under our bridges & crap on our sidewalk just so they can save their rent checks and use it on more drugs/booze. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, maybe i'm an asshole...

I live in Springfield. I see the same people asking for money and getting mad if you do not give it to them. I see the same people going to get a free meal and going back to their houses and sitting on their buts. I see those same people buying drugs. There are places in Jacksonville for the true homeless person that bad stuff has happened to and they need help to get on their feet. I am so all for that. BUT!! The new vogue homeless are doing it for a profession. As Michael Jordan says..."If you can ask for a dollar, you can ask do you want fries with that." (something to that affect). I do think their should be State facilities for the people who are mentally incapable of taking care of themselves.

I think we can agree that mental illness is a totally separate issue.

The original complaint was the trash deposited by the homeless.

No one is saying "please hide yourself away."

Rather we are saying, "please stop throwing your trash on the ground." It's the same thing I would say to a wealthy man tossing his candy bar wrapper out of his Lexus.

And, "please take advantage of these things we have provided to help you get off the streets."

I have handed out many of those green pamphlets that list the services for the homeless. The help and information is out there if they choose to help themselves.

Phil

So are you saying we should institutionalize anyone who has a mental illness, or allow the to sleep under our bridges, steal our copper, and poop on our sidewalks?

oh come on. when you have a mental illness, taking pills isn't just a matter of saying, "hey, it's 9 AM. time for my medicine." One of my mom's employee's sons is bi-polar, and he is constantly going off of his meds. the only difference between him and a homeless person is that is family is rich, and can afford to ship him off to expensive hospitals that get him clean for a couple of months. if he, with all of the advantages he's had in his life, can't keep on meds, how much more difficult is it to keep on meds when you are poor and homeless.

this is my neighborhood, and i don't mind it occuring.

Its easy to be a bleeding heart when its not your neighborhood, and you don't have to deal with things like this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZoVpJsKLxM

BTW, you cant help those that don't want help. You are perfectly free to be homeless in the US. If you don't want to take your meds, no body can force you to until you become a danger to yourself or those around you..

Besides, it so much easier to steal copper and sell yourself to support that crack habit.

"The bridges need lighting underneath to prevent people from squatting and sleeping. Lighting would increase the safety of the surrounding area and could mitigate some of the trash in and around Hogan’s Creek."

I'm all for making Springfield better, and for cleaning up disgusting sites like under the bridge. HOWEVER, am i the only one who is a little uncomfortable in essentially saying "Sorry homeless people, find some other covered place to sleep outside, we don't want to look at the byproducts of your homelessness anymore."? I mean, really, when I am inside my house, in my nice, warm bed, it doesn't bother me if someone IS sleeping under the bridge. What bothers me is that someone actually HAS to sleep under the bridge.

Cool job Joey. I'm glad you took pictures of the "before" that FCN could use...

BTW, you looked very Hollywood in the story...like a younger Jack Nicholson. Let us hear you say, "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!"

Phil