Comments on: The Case Against Roads http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/ A blog about Downtown Jacksonville, Springfield, LaVilla, Brooklyn, the Southbank and San Marco. Tue, 06 Jan 2009 04:20:55 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: Roger Sharp http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-60443 Roger Sharp Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:34:22 +0000 http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-60443 We are presently facing a crisis in transportation funding. The prices of steel, concrete and real estate have increased construction costs enormously at a time when historically high gas prices are resulting in some conservation and reduction in gas tax collections. (All gas taxes are calculated in terms of cents/gallon regardless of the price of gas at the pump.) We have a backlog of needed maintenance and repair of older facilities. Structurally deficient and functionally obsolete facilities need to be replaced, and transit subsidies are taking a larger percentage of the pie, thus there will be little funding available for new capacity. We essentially have four options facing us at the moment: • Stop building new capacity improvements (highway or transit) • Increase gas taxes (or other fees such as tags) substantially • Use private-sector funding recouped through tolls • Introduce congestion pricing to shift peak-hour demand to other times of the day. We are presently facing a crisis in transportation funding. The prices of steel, concrete and real estate have increased construction costs enormously at a time when historically high gas prices are resulting in some conservation and reduction in gas tax collections. (All gas taxes are calculated in terms of cents/gallon regardless of the price of gas at the pump.) We have a backlog of needed maintenance and repair of older facilities. Structurally deficient and functionally obsolete facilities need to be replaced, and transit subsidies are taking a larger percentage of the pie, thus there will be little funding available for new capacity. We essentially have four options facing us at the moment:

• Stop building new capacity improvements (highway or transit)
• Increase gas taxes (or other fees such as tags) substantially
• Use private-sector funding recouped through tolls
• Introduce congestion pricing to shift peak-hour demand to other times of the day.

]]> By: rob http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-11369 rob Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:00:03 +0000 http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-11369 lakelander, I don't mean to say that existing places aren't worth a damn. I mean that a myopic approach that only focuses on transportation systems runs the risk of allowing neighborhoods to become monochromatic or disconnected with the reality of the market. Urbanites can't just say "we have a great bus system... why would anyone live anywhere else?" The if-you-build-it-they-will-come ethos is an oversimplification. Besides polititians aren't the only ones who make decisions that effect this issue. The private sector and community organizations have a roll to play too. lakelander, I don’t mean to say that existing places aren’t worth a damn. I mean that a myopic approach that only focuses on transportation systems runs the risk of allowing neighborhoods to become monochromatic or disconnected with the reality of the market. Urbanites can’t just say “we have a great bus system… why would anyone live anywhere else?” The if-you-build-it-they-will-come ethos is an oversimplification. Besides polititians aren’t the only ones who make decisions that effect this issue. The private sector and community organizations have a roll to play too.

]]> By: Joey Marchy http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-11164 Joey Marchy Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:52:33 +0000 http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-11164 natmgriff, thanks for the comments! I'm glad I was able to "make your night" natmgriff,
thanks for the comments! I’m glad I was able to “make your night”

]]> By: thelakelander http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-11155 thelakelander Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:21:16 +0000 http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-11155 rob, we already have a good number of destinations along our existing rail lines. In other areas, we have the opportunity to bring in transit oriented development. All we need is political will and vision to connect the dots. rob, we already have a good number of destinations along our existing rail lines. In other areas, we have the opportunity to bring in transit oriented development. All we need is political will and vision to connect the dots.

]]> By: natmgriff http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-11124 natmgriff Mon, 19 Feb 2007 05:46:36 +0000 http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-11124 Best article evah! You made every point that I constantly have to or want to make, as I am at the moment, in the process of trying to buy a house. While my husband and I would not consider buying in anywhere other than an "historic" neighborhood such as Springfield, Riverside, San Marco - I personally know people buying into World Golf Village, attracted by the shiny new houses with upgrades. I know they don't have the vested interest in the city that we do and they are hoping to turn their profits in a few years (which in my mind is not a valid reason as I know profits can certainly be turned in historic homes, without a doubt) - when weighing money and shiny golf houses in one hand and my connection with my community, my fellow human beings and my environment in my other hand, my other hand is going to win every time. Thanks Joey for commenting on Michael Lewyn's excellent article. I was so happy to read that a few weeks back, and so happy to read about it once again. You made my night! Best article evah!
You made every point that I constantly have to or want to make, as I am at the moment, in the process of trying to buy a house. While my husband and I would not consider buying in anywhere other than an “historic” neighborhood such as Springfield, Riverside, San Marco - I personally know people buying into World Golf Village, attracted by the shiny new houses with upgrades. I know they don’t have the vested interest in the city that we do and they are hoping to turn their profits in a few years (which in my mind is not a valid reason as I know profits can certainly be turned in historic homes, without a doubt) - when weighing money and shiny golf houses in one hand and my connection with my community, my fellow human beings and my environment in my other hand, my other hand is going to win every time. Thanks Joey for commenting on Michael Lewyn’s excellent article. I was so happy to read that a few weeks back, and so happy to read about it once again. You made my night!

]]> By: rob http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-11092 rob Sun, 18 Feb 2007 19:37:42 +0000 http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-11092 I think that skink identified one of the big causal situations here. There is money to be made, and easy money at that, in developing the hinterlands to no end. Greenfield development is cheaper and more straight-forward than urban (or even suburban) renewal and every loan officer can understand the formula. But there is also the strange fact that people and businesses are willing to move to the boon docks for some reason. Developers are not into creative solutions and will follow urban exiles off a cliff faster than you can get the Prius up to 65. It sounds crazy to some of us, but there is something the urban core is not providing these folks. I agree that cutting off the road building craze is crucial, but it's also only part of the solution - what good are urban mass transit initiatives if there are no destinations along the service routes worth a damn. Nice places are what make people want to move into and stay in a neighborhood. Up until recently, neighborhoods could get away with just being near something else important like a business district or commuter hub. Nowadays, people are more high maintenance. They want easier commutes, cooler haunts, cleaner streets, nicer movie theaters, etc. How can something that already exists without those amenities compete with slash and burn developments? A possible first step would be to show developers that money can be made in good ole downtown and its environs. Sure, you can't go in and put up 100 identical crap boxes that will fall apart in 10 years, but you can make improvements to the existing fabric that will add value to the community for years to come. The more cohesive and rich the local centers become, even small ones like Five Points, the more opportunities for further development and jobs arise in the surrounding areas. Its hard getting developers to think this way when they have their cake and eat it too every day out in the boon docks but our law makers could help by passing in-town tax incentives and stop spoon-feeding their mentally lazy developer buddies. We can also push things along by shopping locally to insure that local business have the operating capital to stay around. I think that skink identified one of the big causal situations here. There is money to be made, and easy money at that, in developing the hinterlands to no end. Greenfield development is cheaper and more straight-forward than urban (or even suburban) renewal and every loan officer can understand the formula. But there is also the strange fact that people and businesses are willing to move to the boon docks for some reason. Developers are not into creative solutions and will follow urban exiles off a cliff faster than you can get the Prius up to 65. It sounds crazy to some of us, but there is something the urban core is not providing these folks.

I agree that cutting off the road building craze is crucial, but it’s also only part of the solution - what good are urban mass transit initiatives if there are no destinations along the service routes worth a damn. Nice places are what make people want to move into and stay in a neighborhood. Up until recently, neighborhoods could get away with just being near something else important like a business district or commuter hub. Nowadays, people are more high maintenance. They want easier commutes, cooler haunts, cleaner streets, nicer movie theaters, etc. How can something that already exists without those amenities compete with slash and burn developments?

A possible first step would be to show developers that money can be made in good ole downtown and its environs. Sure, you can’t go in and put up 100 identical crap boxes that will fall apart in 10 years, but you can make improvements to the existing fabric that will add value to the community for years to come. The more cohesive and rich the local centers become, even small ones like Five Points, the more opportunities for further development and jobs arise in the surrounding areas. Its hard getting developers to think this way when they have their cake and eat it too every day out in the boon docks but our law makers could help by passing in-town tax incentives and stop spoon-feeding their mentally lazy developer buddies. We can also push things along by shopping locally to insure that local business have the operating capital to stay around.

]]> By: Michael Lewyn http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-11043 Michael Lewyn Sun, 18 Feb 2007 03:26:59 +0000 http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-11043 One downside of consolidation: because some undeveloped areas are still within the city limits of Jacksonville, I suspect that many people within the city government (and JTA) probably still think they can ride the tiger of sprawl rather than being eaten by it. That's why I targeted the Outer Beltway- since it is mostly going to be outside the city limits, it is more obviously harmful to the city than highways within the city limits. One downside of consolidation: because some undeveloped areas are still within the city limits of Jacksonville, I suspect that many people within the city government (and JTA) probably still think they can ride the tiger of sprawl rather than being eaten by it.

That’s why I targeted the Outer Beltway- since it is mostly going to be outside the city limits, it is more obviously harmful to the city than highways within the city limits.

]]> By: Downtownparks http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-10956 Downtownparks Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:39:30 +0000 http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-10956 Great Hiassen refrence, Captain! Great Hiassen refrence, Captain!

]]> By: skink http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-10950 skink Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:53:30 +0000 http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-10950 The elite that put Thoburn in power has no intention of changing the direction of sprawl in northeast Florida. Look at the campaign contributions to the mayor's uneccessary war chest. Check the contributions to the city council members who voted to ignore the requirement for planning director. Then take a drive down C.R. 210 east from Phillips Highway. Drive out Argyle Forest Boulevard, spend some time on Dunns Creek road on the northside,wait in traffic an Kernan and Atlantic... and while you are cruising through this sub-urban blight, make sure to take note of the names on all the signs outside the McMansion construction sites. Or the names on the sides of the work trucks running speedily along these new roads. Or the names on the sides of the heavy equipment raking up the oaks and pines and hauling in the dirt, filling in the wetlands. guess what? They are the same names as the contribution list. The easiest way to develop land and profit (and thereby further consolidate influence) is through sprawl. I expect Thoburn to remain loyal and continue the staus quo. The elite that put Thoburn in power has no intention of changing the direction of sprawl in northeast Florida. Look at the campaign contributions to the mayor’s uneccessary war chest. Check the contributions to the city council members who voted to ignore the requirement for planning director.

Then take a drive down C.R. 210 east from Phillips Highway. Drive out Argyle Forest Boulevard, spend some time on Dunns Creek road on the northside,wait in traffic an Kernan and Atlantic…
and while you are cruising through this sub-urban blight, make sure to take note of the names on all the signs outside the McMansion construction sites. Or the names on the sides of the work trucks running speedily along these new roads.
Or the names on the sides of the heavy equipment raking up the oaks and pines and hauling in the dirt, filling in the wetlands.
guess what?

They are the same names as the contribution list.

The easiest way to develop land and profit (and thereby further consolidate influence) is through sprawl.

I expect Thoburn to remain loyal and continue the staus quo.

]]> By: thelakelander http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-10944 thelakelander Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:58:24 +0000 http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2007/02/15/the-case-against-roads/#comment-10944 It should be real interesting to see if we can be successful at creating quality TOD's around a BRT only system. There are several examples of major TOD type developments in the United States, coming online because of various rail (fixed transit systems), but few gravitating to BRT. Even in Charlotte, which JTA uses its BRT line (former HOV lanes in the middle of an expressway outside of the core) as an example, the TOD focus has been on their light rail and streetcar systems. Ottawa, another city JTA looks up to, has development located along it's bus lines, but most of the development was already in place, before the transit system was constructed and it's a major stretch to compare the idea of mass transit in a country like Canada with a sprawling Sunbelt US metro area like Jax. It should be real interesting to see if we can be successful at creating quality TOD’s around a BRT only system. There are several examples of major TOD type developments in the United States, coming online because of various rail (fixed transit systems), but few gravitating to BRT. Even in Charlotte, which JTA uses its BRT line (former HOV lanes in the middle of an expressway outside of the core) as an example, the TOD focus has been on their light rail and streetcar systems.

Ottawa, another city JTA looks up to, has development located along it’s bus lines, but most of the development was already in place, before the transit system was constructed and it’s a major stretch to compare the idea of mass transit in a country like Canada with a sprawling Sunbelt US metro area like Jax.

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