Will rising gas prices increase downtown residency?
07/10/07 • Posted in: Downtown Jacksonville, Eco by Joey Marchy 64 Comments »
I’ve decided increasingly high gas prices will prompt more people to live close to where they work, i.e. Downtown Jacksonville. Jacksonville has such a commuter downtown. People get up, drive into work, leave work and drive home. An overwhelming majority of the people downtown (I’d say close to 90%) leave for the suburbs at 5. This trend will begin to change in favor of more people working AND living downtown for the following reasons:
- larger stock of available housing
- increased downtown development (more stuff to do)
- increased commute times due to sprawl and lack of reasonable public transportation
- and finally, rising gas prices
The Lusk Center, a USC think tank, says:
Once the realization soaks into the American consciousness that high-cost gas is here to stay, Gabriel predicts, those high commute prices will pull more homeowners — even young families — to live in central cities and create a push for more public transportation. (Source: Could rising gas prices kill the suburbs?)
It’s insulting paying $60 to fill up your tank, only to sit in traffic for 1 to 2 hours a day. It also starts to get annoying. Eventually, people will begin demanding their lives back. They will opt to walk home from work instead of sitting in a car for hours a day. If you lived downtown, the walk home might take 10 minutes. That’s an hour and 50 minutes of reclaimed time, plus you’re not breathing fumes. Well, unless the city has it’s way with the BRT.
The time savings is great, not to mention your new found sanity from not sitting in traffic. Of course more people downtown means more need for parking. You know we can’t live without our 2.5 cars in this city (I know we can’t!). But we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it.
…Or consumers will push the car companies to offer vehicles with better gas mileage.
While I hope the high gas prices will force us all to make better decisions and think about conservation of resources, there is so much efficiency yet to be gained by simply throttling back the horsepower in 10.2 Liter Hemi-Powered Super-Crew monster trucks. Consumers seem to know this, so I wouldn’t expect the unenlightened masses to immediately sell their exurban homes and repopulate the core just because of gas prices — especially in Jacksonville, a place defined by its suburbs and somewhat insignificant downtown (compared to the Southside).
I think we’ll probably see a spike in Prius, Camry Hybrid, Honda Civic Hybrid, and other gas efficient vehicle sales before we see a major shift in suburban populations. It’s a lot easier to buy a new car than it is to sell your house in the current down market…
What I save from a reduced commute was a big part of my decision to move Downtown 2 years ago: less gas, less car maintenance, no traffic, more time.
i’d guess that damon is right on. after totaling my hand-me-down explorer, the first thing i did was get a hatchback with great gas mileage. i also moved close to downtown though.
I made a conscious effort to live near downtown after living in Jacksonville for a year. I found myself spending most of my time around San Marco, Riverside and downtown so decided a move was in order. I also looked for a job downtown and got one.
Now I ride my bike or carpool most of the week. I have more free time and fill up my tank a lot less.
If you work in or near downtown, it’s a possibility that you may be inclined to consider moving closer to downtown. However, it’s a tough decision to make when you take into account other factors such as kids and the local schools.
Those of us with elementary age kids are hard pressed to move into town when the schools are hit or miss. I don’t make enough to send my kids to private school (I would be loathe to do so anyway) and the wife is leery of the magnet school lottery system. Until those issues are properly addressed by the City and a better overall system is established, I will just have to enjoy my 20-25 min. commute into town every morning and evening. Thank god for the iPod and podcasting…
Adios.
people always knocking on the private schools…
Mainly knocking the $$$ to get in…sometimes you do get what you pay for, no?
What are the public schools that serve downtown residents? How are their FCAT grades compared with those in the burbs?
I live in Springfield, however I work in Baymeadows. The wife works downtown though. I guess we should move to somewhere in between? I’m not moving back to Arlington!
You can find FCAT scores and the “grade” of each school via the Duval County Public Schools web site:
www [dot] dreamsbeginhere [dot] org
Use the “quick link” to the right labeled: School Grades. On the next page, there is a link for: 2006 School Grades…voila.
hey that looks like the shithole that is owned by Chris Hionedis and sells these rose in tubes to all the neighborhood crackies…
http://www.sptimes.com/News/081001/Floridian/A_crack_pipe_by_any_o.shtml
yeah Gotta love livin downtown!
The schools that serve downtown are part of what is called “inspiration magnet”, and include Andrew Robinson, RL Brown, Brentwood, Susie Tolbert, and a few others. Many of the kids in Springfield are going to Holiday Hills (which is oddly considered a neighborhood school) and I can tell you from our magnet search last spring, its is a great old fashion neighborhood school.
We ended up putting our eldest into Susie Tolbert because it has a five day a week gifted program. Our second choice was Holiday Hills.
We tried Andrew Robinson for 1 year “HATED IT!!” My girls are going into their 2nd year at Holiday Hills. Totally night and day difference from Andrew Robinson…Wouldn’t send my dog back to Andy R…Wished we didn’t put the kids through the hassle!!!
The alternative to this, however, is that companies may build or relocate their offices closer to where the employees live. That could be the danger/downside for Downtown.
I can see the top of an eight story office building from the front door of my Southside apartment.
Would you walk to that call center if you worked there? Could you safely? That would be ok. Thats urban.
Standardized testing is for corporations. Might consider public school post-FCAT. Wasn’t F-canning the F-CAT on Crist’s list?
Also, if you want to get your green, sustainable, urban grid on, check summer time in the city Sunday in the lot next to the burrito. Walk or peddle or something or car pool or bus or segway or electric car or electric slide. I’ve been amazed by the new springfield block party lifestyle, hopefully ya’ll can make it. Its a laid back sunday thing.
Click my name (not beaugh) for more info.
The working class ,who have the most powerful incentive to modify their gasoline consumption as prices continue to rise, are effectively priced out of downtown living.
A more reasonable expectation would be that these people,whose income is consistenly falling behind cost of living, will retreat further into marginal, Wal-Mart centered, suburban enclaves.
More affluent young professionals might be attracted, but Downtown will have to compete with burgeoning DRI’s like Nocatee and Rivertown (among several others) for their support.
And we all know where the local machine will steer these folks.
What is the State Housing number considered “moderate income”?…the one used to classify developlments as “affordable”
like 140000 for a two income household?
I think there a little to much wiggle room in that number to expect such folks, cuz of a gasoline budget,to abandon the regional amenities of their vapid exurban bliss.
Rick K nails the big issue with the Downtown living in general: the cost.
As of today — and the next few years — there’s no comparison in between the convenience of living on the outskirts of the Westside in a brand new 2000+ sf KB Home, next to a new Wal-Mart, Publix, and VyStar Credit Union, versus the pioneer Downtown living of parking issues, lack of a [super]market, high per-square-foot cost, and the prospect of BRT filling your upstairs apartment with diesel exhaust fumes and soot.
I’ll forever be befuddled by the current scheme of promoting growth by injecting high-end condos into Downtown. It’s so counterintuitive.
Real growth comes by letting the artists and young folks populate the urban core, open shops, tolerate the crime and “birth pangs” , and eventually give way to the rich people who suddenly “discover” how cool that urban core is (effectively pricing out the people that helped make it cool again).
To get back on topic, $5 gas would spur that along. You might even see a bike lane on JTB ;)
Damon kinda nailed it for me. I live in Springfield only because I inherited my place, as much as I enjoy Springfield and downtown even moreso, there’s not a chance in hell I could do it from scratch and I’m not really sure I’d even want to at this point, I’m a shitty “pioneer”.
However, when I tally costs and realize that even with trips to St. Augustine, I don’t spend more than $25/month on gas thanks to living here and working just a hop away in Riverside.
Check this out. A green, umm, electric motorcycle:
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4024869
after living in LA for 10 years, I never saw gas prices cause people to move closer to work, and gas was way more expensive, and people have wet dreams of 30 minute commutes - I sometimes drove 2 hours each way, or about 30 miles to work. Most people drove long distances becasue the affordable housing was far from the good jobs. The only people I knew who moved or lived close to their jobs were the ones who could afford the high gas prices anyways. Kinda of like the people who save money by shopping at Costco are the ones who can afford to tie up their paychecks by buying massive amounts of groceries in bulk. And the rich get richer.
Oh my goodness, that Enertia motorcycle. I want one. Says its got the same horsepower as a Ninja 250, which is what I ride. I’m telling you, people…if it’s just you on your daily commutes, why not consider a motorcycle or scooter? Talk about saving gas and money.
I have to chime in with Tom Borland… I moved here from New York and saw people regularly commute from as far as 80 miles away into NYC, about 6-7 hours per day of commute time on the trains to a place like Poughkeepsie or Montauk. The people who can afford to live in Downtown Jacksonville right now think nothing of plunking down $60 to fill up their SUV. Jacksonville’s downtown is somewhat artificial to begin with in that it was never a large urban core with high-density housing units like areas in NYC or other industrial cities in the north… people already had cheap housing and cheap cars when Jacksonville came of stride, so there was never much demand for high-density housing. This city grew as a suburb and for the moment, suburbs are what our economy and culture are designed around. It would take something akin to the late 70s gas crisis stretched out over a period of years for things like mass transit and high-density housing to become serious alternatives to the current situation.
People decide where to live on an aesthetic basis. Then they suck it up and pay the consequences, whether in gas and commute time or parking hassles and grocery store envy. I live in an old house because I like the feel of an old house over a spacious but lifeless, garage-dominated box. Suburbia creeps me out in the same way that Springfield creeps out suburbanites. O.k., so I don’t worry if the suburbs are “safe” — but the suburbanites’ pathetically exaggerated safety concerns are part of what bothers me about the suburbs. Plus, those twisty, disorienting street patterns in the ‘burbs make me feel trapped. It’s a question of what you recoil at more: suburban architecture is more frightening to me than the sight of a homeless dude is to the average suburbanite.
As for schools, the magnet system has enough good options that I don’t think it’s such a big worry. In the context of the current discussion about gas prices, though, the hilarious thing is that I drive my kids to a magnet school in Ortega Forest. They got started there when my family lived in Avondale. We’d probably choose Tolbert if we had it to do over again. But I know people drive their kids to Tolbert from Avondale, San Marco, and the Baymeadows area, again giving the lie to the idea that people will decide where to live so as to minimize commutes. I think people will cite commute time as a consideration when it backs up the decision they’ve made for other, more aesthetic reasons.
Actually Chris, Jacksonville once had a thriving core. It wasnt until the 50s and 60s that the city government, in an effort to clean up “blight” started tearing down buildings and neighborhoods all over the place.
In fact, to give some perspective, after the 1901 downtown fire, there were ten thousand people left homeless. Today, we reportedly have 2000 people living and renting downtown.
Springfield at its peak had 7-8000 people. Today, I would be shocked if we have over 3500. According to the 2000 census, we had 5000, but we have lost a lot of multi-family units to restoration and degradation since then. In 2000, for example, my one little corner once had a six-plex (soon to be single family) three duplexes, and the five houses where skimbrough lives (right behind me) were almost all duplexed. Now there are no duplexes, all of them are single family, or empty/awaiting sale.
Density has only in recent decades become a running joke in Jacksonville. Hell, as recently as 1997 when they built Tinseltown theater, I openly wondered why they were building a theater in the middle of a field in the middle of nowhere…
I suspect that if energy costs continue to increase, you will see more dense centers popping up, reverting back to the old town center concept. In some cases you already see that. How many apartment and condo units have been built around Tinseltown? You can show, eat, get a haircut, go see a show, and buy a car within a few feet of one another. My biggest beef with it is how cheap it was all done. I am really going to be curious to see how the stucco and Styrofoam construction holds up. My suspicion is in 30 years, those areas will be slummy. Let us not forget how Justina in Arlington was the shiz-nit in the 50s and 60s during the early stages of urban flight….
DTP, one of my best friends builds that tract housing out of strandboard and stucco and he’s confided to me that he’s had numerous pre-move-in inspection failures on brand new construction. So its just a matter of time until those homes fall apart.
Heck my home was built with heart pine and I have rotten wood to deal with, strandboard and No2 pine, styrofoam… lucky to last 20 years imho.
and Skimbro, your description of suburbia is right on point. I could not imagine how depressed I would be to have to drive home to that every night and then see a scene right out of She’s having a baby where everyone is mowing their yard at the same time on weekends. Barf..
Chris, thanks for the segue with the recurring gas crises. I’ll admit it does take the average N. American, (I have to include Canada in this because they are of equal behavior), a good whack on figurative nose with gasoline prices before they make any material changes to their living and working arrangements. If you are single or DINKs you have a lot more options. If you have kids then naturally you are going to try and accommodate their needs. The suburbs offer space and room to play. C’mon Lucy, Ricky, and little Ricky did it!
All things being equal, I would say living in the suburbs is a good choice. But energy is about to get more expensive year over year thereby forcing families into sustainable living versus the American dream in a neighborhood named for the natural features they decimated to create it. I’ve been working on a follow up piece to relocalization with Joey and I don’t mind dropping a few points in this blog. There’s much more meat on the bones to read later. For the point of clarification, you’ll note I use “gasoline” instead of “gas” to differentiate between the liquid fuel and natural gas. If you think we have price issues with gasoline this summer, wait until you see what happens to natural gas this winter.
The tightness of the gasoline refining and supply situation in the US is recently demonstrated by the shutdown of the Coffeyville, KS refinery due to flooding. You think gasoline prices are high here, try buying it in N & S Dakota. They are continually running out of gasoline and fuel trucks have been awarded waivers to run outside of restricted hours while they wait hours at the rail waiting. (The rail is the fuel depot like the ones you see on Hecksher Dr. at Hess). Normally, a shutdown of a refinery this size would be a minor inconvenience. A sign of things to come.
The Coffeyville refinery will most likely be shut down through the summer. Compound that with storms in the Gulf of Mexico and we will be facing gasoline over $4/gal with tight supplies. The panic and bitching begins… Did we dodge a bullet? I’m reminded of a movie scene where a lone Indian confronts a calvary troop and the commander guffaws at the opponent’s audacity. Then over the rise of the hill the other 3,000 Indians slowly come into view. That is essentially what was released on Monday with the IEA’s Medium Term Oil Market Outlook 2007. Just go to http://www.energybulletin.net, it’s all over the site - you can’t miss it.
For those of pretty good industry knowledge, it is the clearest admission to the phenomena of Peak Oil. By saying supplies will tighten and then drop off from 2010 to 2012 while demand grows at 2.2% instead of the previously forecasted 2%, it’s a sign of the first descent down the right hand side of the curve. It’s just a matter of being on the front of the roller coaster or the back, but eventually we’re all going over that apex.
To bring it back to the core of this discussion, will higher gas prices drive more into downtown living, invariably yes. Not only prices, but within a few years availability will be a concern. Homes like Springfield and Riverside will continue to rise in value while the exurbs will fall and reformat as some of you have already pointed out.
How Walmart will survive will be a lesson in corporate fascism. More at 11 Bob…
O.k, now for the 11 o’clock news for those that prefer video to text. I’ll post this in the other forums as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlOzfS_FV4c
I think this is Steve’s first time as a news pundit.
The market analyst fails to recognize the depletion of giant oil fields while the new resources come on line. As the Red Queen said, you have to run just to keep in place. The amount of new oil to come on line each year would be equivalent to a Canada or Iran in exports. That’s a lot of development and cash.
Just a quick note, I was listening to news radio the other day, b/c that’s what I do. They had an economist on there that said they did a study and that the average American will not change their habits until gas prices hit $10 a gallon due to our economy. I hope that’s not true, b/c just about everyone I know will be in some severe financial problems if that is the case.
On a side note, I’m getting a motorcycle tomorrow to counter my large v8 truck fuel costs.
Wow, great post and conversation.
I think that $10 a gallon thing is partially true. I could see how long before it gets that high, people would start carpooling etc. To me a change of habit is living close to your job, to basically have a smaller daily travel radius. Smaller communities! $10 a gallon seems more like the price when the average surburban home owner seriously thinks about moving.
$10/gal? Let’s see if we can see the forest for the trees. That is, and I ask this rhetorically, what other costs are going to be so astronomically high long before gasoline gets to $10/gal? We won’t be able to afford many, many other things than driving our automobiles by the time the price hits that mark.
Here’s a quick list of things that will reflect the costs manifold:
- anything made with plastic. short of pine lumber, this includes just about everything.
- food. this is a long list, but in agriculture the fertilizers and pesticides are made from petroleum and natural gas. then it has to get shipped to your local market. re: the end of the 3,000 mile ceasar salad.
- Chinese useless crap made from plastic, shipped 12,000 miles, and thrown away or recycled through yard sales (a tragedy surely)
- electricity. from the mining and transport of coal, to the substitution cost of natural gas. Wait, NG has peaked and it’s price will rise faster than gasoline! or, the operational costs of utilities.
- clothing. much the same as plastics.
- war. the US military is probably the world’s single largest liquid fuel consumer and the current prices are already impacting budgets. Guess we’ll have to go back to the good old days of ICBM’s. “Sorry, we can’t afford to put troops on the ground to occupy your country full of petroleum reserves, so we’ll just have to turn your entire landscape into glass. Budget cutbacks you know.” (Kind of sounds like Monty Python or “Brazil” - wait! they’re both the same).
- porn. only to see if you are paying attention ;> (although, see “plastics”)
My point is to focus solely on the price of gasoline is to watch wavelets lapping on the shore while a tsunami barrels in from the ocean. I know this stands as a psychological metric in our happy motoring culture and is one felt most directly. But don’t worry about radical driving pattern changes at that price because TSHTF long before that. In the near future, you’re more likely to be driving a mule cart than paying $10/gal because the economy will have collapsed.
Now you get a feel for why I am writing the relocalization pieces. It is probably our best, and only, method to survive the coming energy crises. Things could be like playing The Beverly Hillbillies in reverse. This doesn’t follow the original tune, but you get the idea…
Now ol’ Jed’s a destitute billionaire,
His petro-dollar currency collapsed,
While he was offshore banking derivatives in Bonaire,
The folks said the Ozarks is the place you otta be,
So he packed up the family and moved away from Beverly.
Hills that is,
Empty energy sucking palaces,
Zombie movie stars,
And dried up swimming pools.
etc.
***Man, that would cost me $300 to fill my Tahoe.***
P.S. thinking of buying a motorcycle? I checked the link posted by Road King. Pretty darn swanky I must say (must be said with your best Ed Grimley voice).
I will offer one caution. I used to ride a motorcycle commuting in a large city for over a year some 25 years ago. After that experience I swore I would never commute on a motorcycle again. Car drivers are just too brain dead. You might save on the gas bill, but what will the medical bill be? It could be a matter of price, how about a used Civic?
a bit off topic- but i don’t know where else to ask, anyone around riverside/downtown notice the ridiculous amount of “chemtrails” in being spread in the air by white planes lately and strange aircraft noise/behavior at all times of the day? i’m noticing quite a few people getting the usual chemtrail “flu” symptoms and just generally being very “out of it”. not to mention we are having some very bizzare weather(check out the perpetual white haze over the sun, you can practically look right at it) which is only going to get hotter. another federal sponsored heatwave or worse? or are we still calling this a hoax? anyone who doesn’t know what i’m talking about, look it up and then just try looking up.
noone, I have been directed to a few sites before. I really don’t know whether to believe it or not. There seems to be a surfeit of evidence. Are we all going collectively crazy, or is the rise of the American fascist state becoming a reality?
Some think I see a conspiracy in everything, or so it appears that way. At least a major international body has come public with the Peak Oil thing. Now I can retire my foil helmet. But should this the con trail situation prove true, I can’t imagine the depth of evil that pervades our society and government. One can only ask “why?”.
Starting this weekend I was having respiratory problems. My wife thinks I’m a hypochondriac.
plenty of people who don’t read about them are feeling the effects regardless, an example being my 18 month old son.
So, we have, like, what 10 years until it’s “Children of Men/Blade Runner/Water World/Mad Max/Soylent Green” time? Fuck law school, I’m going to learn to become a farmer.
That pretty much sums it up Adam. We will be following Shakespeare’s advice and first kill all the lawyers. Or follow Georgia’s first colonial governor Oglethorpe and ban lawyers because they are mischievous and meddlesome. But before you give up on law school, I like the financial advice Moneyman posted on The Oil Drum.
Get your money into tangible assets as they will hold value while the currency collapses. Precious metals, useful real estate, things that we can use and are not artificially supported will retain wealth. In tough times frivolous professions will have little merit. Picking up some agricultural skills may not be a bad idea. Heck, I would do just have a shot at Ellie Mae.
I’m not as dystopian as Mad Max, but one has to ask how an economy can continue to grow when the energy that fuels it starts to contract? Some of the early warning signs are the retailers. Sears and Home Depot are not growing. How can Walmart continue with it’s warehouse on wheels supply chain when the costs behind the business model become extraordinary?
BTW noone, what kind of white planes have you been seeing flying by? Are they commercial, or smaller, or Navy?
things just took a turn for the crazy.
“People decide where to live on an aesthetic basis.”
I dont think that the aesthetic is as powerful an incentive for alot of people as it is for you.
now we’re on chemtrails eh? ok here’s a good piece on those: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXw18M3cbrE&mode=related&search=
Please tell me you dont believe this crap…
I’m more worried about RF bombardment from all of the cell towers and stuff than I am some super secret government conspiracy.
In case you guys haven’t noticed, our government is pretty inefficient, regardless of what party the politicos are from…
If we are going to start taking every hair brained idea thats ever been proposed as conclusive proof of these things, I think that any rational voice will get squashed, and all of the tin hat wearing folks will simply see who can scream at the other the loudest…
What?? It doesn’t happen because the government is inefficient? C’mon DP, you’re smarter than that. I’ve actually heard you put together two cognitive sentences. Is the con trail thing nutty? I have no opinion. But I wouldn’t put it past the government because if they are inefficient, they can also operate as an insane monolith.
If you were an ant going about your business all would seem fine and dandy. Observe it from our perspective and it looks quite chaotic. However, I have discussed with first hand sources some things that get dismissed as conspiracy theory and it turns out to be not so hair brained after all.
Will this knowledge stop me from going about my daily business, not likely. I am I suspicious, a little more than usual. However, if I should disap………………………………… umph, ugh……..
This seems more convincing, this is Part 2, but you can access the other parts easy enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBZH4gsoCbc&mode=related&search=
If this doesn’t link properly, look up Aerosol Crimes.
[b]Now, back to the main subject, will gas prices cause more people to consider downtown residency?[/b]
just for the record, plenty of documents have been made available thanks to the freedom of information act detailing spraying of unwitting citizens going all the way back to the 1930s. they used the tactic in the gulf war and, strangely enough, hitler used it. the best part is, it’s not against the law. the FEDERAL government, much like the FEDERAL reserve, can do whatever they want without being prosecuted because they’re run by the wealthy elite. money has replaced god and any real conscience (see: instinct) we had rests in our pineal glands underneath a nice layer of flouride. there are plenty of worse things out there than chemtrails that are just as easy to deny but no less real. we’ve been duped for hundreds of years, at least. i’m not even getting into theories, there are plenty of concrete facts that people deny because they’re simply scared, don’t understand, or believe it or not, just don’t know about. by the way, the discovery channel link, it’s still disinformation.
noone for the record, I agree with you. I’ve had my wake up call about the Federal Reserve and the illegality of the IRS in regards to collection of personal income tax. About the afraid and subjugated chattel, yes I agree. Watch “America: Freedom to Fascism” and you will find a harmony of ideas. I am just recommending we don’t hijack this thread.
the illegality of the IRS? what? ugg. “The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes”
But not on your Person. The Congress has the power to lay and collect taxes on an enterprise such as a business or an excise. Your Person, as defined in the Constitution, is any trade you offer for your labor or services. But, I don’t want to hijack this thread on this other issue as well.
If you want a clear legal definition of the power of the IRS to collect personal income taxes, ask them to show the law. I’ll wait.
And I’ll save a week’s’ worth of researching case records. Don’t produce the case history post 1956, concentrate on the case history prior to this date on the legality of the 16th Amendment. Don’t produce the IRS Code unless you go through a rigorous correlation to the associated Regulations. All of these are derivatives or embellishments upon the core legal body of the Statute. Show me the Statute that empowers the Congress to lay and collect taxes on a Person.
Since you are a law student, this should be an interesting enterprise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
i wasn’t replying to you, brother. haven’t seen freedom to fascism but i know all about aaron russo’s story. some of it is used in “zeitgeist”. check that out at jonhs.net if you haven’t seen it. thread hijack over.
AMENDMENT XVI
Passed by Congress July 2, 1909. Ratified February 3, 1913.
Note: Article I, section 9, of the Constitution was modified by amendment 16.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
And it was never properly ratified.
On February 25, 1913, the Republican Secretary of State Philander Knox proclaimed that the amendment had been ratified by the necessary three-quarters of the states ensuring the constitutionality of unapportioned federal income taxes.
According to the United States Government Printing Office, the following states ratified the amendment:[8]
1. Alabama (August 10, 1909)
2. Kentucky (February 8, 1910)
3. South Carolina (February 19, 1910)
4. Illinois (March 1, 1910)
5. Mississippi (March 7, 1910)
6. Oklahoma (March 10, 1910)
7. Maryland (April 8, 1910)
8. Georgia (August 3, 1910)
9. Texas (August 16, 1910)
10. Ohio (January 19, 1911)
11. Idaho (January 20, 1911)
12. Oregon (January 23, 1911)
13. Washington (January 26, 1911)
14. Montana (January 27, 1911)
15. Indiana (January 30, 1911)
16. California (January 31, 1911)
17. Nevada (January 31, 1911)
18. South Dakota (February 1, 1911)
19. Nebraska (February 9, 1911)
20. North Carolina (February 11, 1911)
21. Colorado (February 15, 1911)
22. North Dakota (February 17, 1911)
23. Michigan (February 23, 1911)
24. Iowa (February 24, 1911)
25. Kansas (March 2, 1911)
26. Missouri (March 16, 1911)
27. Maine (March 31, 1911)
28. Tennessee (April 7, 1911)
29. Arkansas (April 22, 1911, after having previously rejected the amendment)
30. Wisconsin (May 16, 1911)
31. New York (July 12, 1911)
32. Arizona (April 3, 1912)
33. Minnesota (June 11, 1912)
34. Louisiana (June 28, 1912)
35. West Virginia (January 31, 1913)
36. New Mexico (February 3, 1913)
Ratification (by the requisite thirty-six states) was completed on February 3, 1913 with the ratification by New Mexico (but see Delaware and Wyoming below). The amendment was subsequently ratified by the following states, bringing the total number of ratifying states to forty-two:
37. Delaware (February 3, 1913)
38. Wyoming (February 3, 1913)
39. New Jersey (February 4, 1913)
40. Vermont (February 19, 1913)
41. Massachusetts (March 4, 1913)
42. New Hampshire (March 7, 1913, after rejecting the amendment on March 2, 1911)
The following states rejected the amendment without ever subsequently ratifying it:
1. Connecticut
2. Florida, which rejected the amendment after it had already been ratified by three-fourths of the states
3. Rhode Island
4. Utah
The following states never took up the proposed amendment:
1. Pennsylvania
2. Virginia
Wheee, this is like political Calvinball! I re-elect zombie nixon and install Mechagodzilla as VP, amendment Pi dictates an installation of a “Blood For Oil” policy where upon flesh, blood and other vittles may be exchanged for fuel rations. The 1st Amendment shall be further amended to exchange freedom of speech for “freedom of screech”, whereupon Dustin Diamond is now allowed to ANYTHING he wants.
On re-location — urban is better than suburban. aesthetics, lifestyle, diversity/variety, tolerance, creativity, re-claimed time.
On Magnets — i believe residents of a “zone” (for example, Zone 1 in Springfield) have priority at magnet schools in that same zone. no lottery, just pick.
On gas prices — it’s my job, but i believe in it, too — Electric Cars!!!
still don’t believe $10 gas prices (ok, but bet on $6)? consider this:
China joins the WTO in 2000, and conveniently has top-down gov’t full of people culturized as “servants to the interests of the state”. interests of the state include building a western economy, and for the past 6.5 years they’ve been admiring and adopting western culture (not ethno-centric, just trendwatching).
if 30% of china’s population desires and can afford a car, that’s approx 390 million cars. what will that do to gasoline demand? (we did it to europe after wwII, and that’s why they pay $6-8 a gallon for their “petrol”).
If you don’t like paying taxes, don’t live here. simple enough.
It’s not in general true that you can pick a magnet in your own zone. That’s probably allowed when there are open spots, but I know from the example of Stockton Elementary that there are many people living in the zone who fail to get in.
Susie Tolbert was considered out of zone for us, Holiday Hill, which is in the southside/beach blvd area is considered IN zone…
It’s not a matter of paying taxes, I do. It’s a matter of the law. It is supposed to rule just about everything we do. I recommend you watch the movie Zeitgeist as mentioned by noone.
http://www.jonhs.net/freemovies/zeitgeist.htm
The law has two sides for both the citizen and the authority. Otherwise we are just Sheeple. And no, I don’t plan on living here too much longer…
In reference to the various posts in this thread having to do with motorcycles:
Yes, it is sometimes dangerous commuting on a motorcycle, because cars resent/envy, don’t watch for us, and don’t see us.
But if lots more people rode two-wheeled vehicles, and the consequence was less cars, then it would be less dangerous for bikes. See? Simple. Lots of big, crowded, European cities have significant motorcycle/scooter/bicycle contingents, and though I don’t know the statistics, I bet bikes are much safer option there, where they’re expected, integrated, and ubiquitous.
I agree Sustainable. The cars are the bull in the china shop. When commuting by either motorcycle or bicycle, I learned to grow eyes in the back of my head. And I did get the odd angry, resentful car driver. Talk about anger issues! One time while riding my motorcycle I had to put my boot into a guy’s door during a rush hour car jam because he tried to swerve and knock me off.
Unfortunately, we have become a culture that values the car more than the human.
On Income Tax: I found this and find it simply Orwellian. To get around the appropriation stipulation of the Constitution, they employed a bit of “double speak” and defined personal income as “an indirect excise tax” - Ginsberg. Now anyone knows there was very clear intent by the Constitution authors to separate goods from your Person or your services. By twisting the definition, (and the courts have done it a few times), they conveniently make it constitutional.
“Over the years, courts have considered numerous claims that one or another nonapportioned tax is a direct tax and therefore unconstitutional. Although these cases have not definitively marked the boundary between taxes that must be apportioned and taxes that need not be … some characteristics of each may be discerned. Only three taxes are definitely known to be direct: (1) a capitation … (2) a tax upon real property, and (3) a tax upon personal property…. Such direct taxes are laid upon one’s “general ownership of property,” [citations omitted], as contrasted with excise taxes laid “upon a particular use or enjoyment of property or the shifting from one to another of any power or privilege incidental to the ownership or enjoyment of property.” … More specifically, excise taxes include, in addition to taxes upon consumable items, … income from employment…. [Emphasis added.]”
I guess Bush was right, the Constitution is just a piece of paper. You’re f**ked, and well on your way to a fascist state - sorry.
So because Congress passed, and the States ratified a constitutional amendment almost 95 years ago, we are now today becoming a facist state?
Im down with your Peak Oil stuff, but I think you live in a paranoid world otherwise. And while I am not a big fan of Bush’s, I don’t remember him saying the constitution is just a “piece of paper”.
(Source) http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7779.shtml
…GOP leaders told Bush that his hardcore push to renew the more onerous provisions of the act could further alienate conservatives still mad at the President from his botched attempt to nominate White House Counsel Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court.
“I don’t give a goddamn,” Bush retorted. “I’m the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way.”
“Mr. President,” one aide in the meeting said. “There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution.”
“Stop throwing the Constitution in my face,” Bush screamed back. “It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”
I’ve talked to three people present for the meeting that day and they all confirm that the President of the United States called the Constitution “a goddamned piece of paper.”
Still paranoid?
And, DP I should sit you down with my local source and let you listen to a few real life career experiences in military special forces and federal law enforcement. It’s pretty bad when this person is considering retirement and views it much the same as trying to quit the Mafia.
Sure I sound paranoid because my radar is blaring full alert. I’ve learned over the years to trust this instinct because it has proved correct when I thought it was preposterous. Same for 9/11 I’m afraid, but not based on the coincidental evidence or the suspected conspiracies. Like you, I prefer concrete evidence, and so while watching “Zeitgeist” as mentioned by noone;
http://www.jonhs.net/freemovies/zeitgeist.htm
there came one image in the rubble of the WTC that was undeniable. It only lasts for a few seconds and I should see if I can get the still. If you chose to watch it, it would be interesting if the same one catches your undivided attention. But we don’t need to discuss that topic now.
As for Peak Oil, why didn’t the recently released IEA Report get any MSM coverage other than buried back in the business sections of NYT, LA Times, and WSJ? This is probably one of the most important news topics of the year. Too boring? Whitehouse and Iraq War still taking all the oxygen in the room? Projections too far out for the average American to pay attention? MSM collusion with corporate overseers? Who knows. In some regards, I’m glad because it gives me more time to make preparations without the frenzied masses. No, I’m not preparing for the end of civilization. These are long term actions much the same as planning for pre-retirement and retirement.
bent, if you want to get into some really entertaining and interesting theories check out the blog http://thebravenewworldorder.blogspot.com